Well, the reason I mention Hippolytus and Marcus and focus on that in my evidence is because there's evidence of the Valentinians, who influenced Marcus, in and around Rome. Thank you. Do you think that by calling the Eucharist a placebo that you're likely to persuade them? That to live on forever and ever, to live an everlasting life is not immortality. Then I see the mysteries of Dionysus as kind of the Burning Man or the Woodstock of the ancient world. But with what were they mixed, and to what effect? And I think that's an important distinction to make. Here is how I propose we are to proceed. That's because Brian and I have become friends these past several months, and I'll have more to say about that in a moment. That's only after Constantine. So I think it's really interesting details here worth following up on. So if you were a mystic and you were into Demeter and Persephone and Dionysus and you were into these strange Greek mystery cults, you'd be hard-pressed to find a better place to spend your time than [SPEAKING GREEK], southern Italy, which in some cases was more Greek than Greek. There's John Marco Allegro claiming that there was no Jesus, and this was just one big amanita muscaria cult. There is evidence that has been either overlooked or perhaps intentionally suppressed. Now we're getting somewhere. CHARLES STANG: OK. And so that's what motivated my search here. CHARLES STANG: All right. What's the importance of your abstention from psychedelics, given what is obvious interest. So I'll speak in language that you and our good colleague Greg [? OK. Now let's pan back because, we have-- I want to wrap up my interrogation of you, which I've been pressing you, but I feel as if perhaps people joining me think I'm hostile to this hypothesis. I write it cognizant of the fact that the Eucharist doesn't work for many, many people. Now, that is part of your kind of interest in democratizing mysticism, but it also, curiously, cuts out the very people who have been preserving this tradition for centuries, namely, on your own account, this sort of invisible or barely visible lineage of women. So it wasn't just a random place to find one of these spiked wines. Here's your Western Eleusis. Not because it's not there, because it hasn't been tested. Because at my heart, I still consider myself a good Catholic boy. And I'll just list them out quickly. And I don't know if it's a genuine mystical experience or mystical mimetic or some kind of psychological breakthrough. So you were unable to test the vessels on site in Eleusis, which is what led you to, if I have this argument right, to Greek colonies around the Mediterranean. And part of me really wants to put all these pieces together before I dive in. I mean, I asked lots of big questions in the book, and I fully acknowledge that. And when you speak in that way, what I hear you saying is there is something going on. I mean, about 25 years ago, actually. These sources suggest a much greater degree of continuity with pre-Christian values and practice than the writings of more . These mysteries had at their center a sacrament called kykeon, which offered a vision of the mysteries of life and death. Klaus Schmidt, who was with the German Archaeological Institute, called this a sanctuary and called these T-shaped pillars representations of gods. But so as not to babble on, I'll just say that it's possible that the world's first temple, which is what Gobekli Tepe is referred to as sometimes, it's possible the world's first temple was also the world's first bar. I'm going to come back to that idea of proof of concept. Show Plants of the Gods: Hallucinogens, Healing, Culture and Conservation podcast, Ep Plants of the Gods: S4E2. The most influential religious historian of the twentieth century, Huston Smith, once referred to it as the "best-kept secret" in history. First, I will provide definitions for the terms "pagan", "Christian", So I was obsessed with this stuff from the moment I picked up an article in The Economist called the God Pill back in 2007. And I guess my biggest question, not necessarily for you, but the psychedelic community, for what it's worth, or those who are interested in this stuff is how do we make this experience sacred? Because every time I think about ancient wine, I am now immediately thinking about wine that is spiked. I have a deep interest in mysticism, and I've had mystical experiences, which I don't think are very relevant. OK-- maybe one of those ancient beers. As a matter of fact, I think it's much more promising and much more fertile for scholarship to suggest that some of the earliest Christians may have availed themselves of a psychedelic sacrament and may have interpreted the Last Supper as some kind of invitation to open psychedelia, that mystical supper as the orthodox call it, [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]. Dogs, indicative of the Greek goddess Hecate, who, amongst other things was known as the [GREEK], the dog eater. . Which, again, what I see are small groups of people getting together to commune with the dead. Up until that point I really had very little knowledge of psychedelics, personal or literary or otherwise. And it was their claim that when the hymn to Demeter, one of these ancient records that records, in some form, the proto-recipe for this kykeon potion, which I call like a primitive beer, in the hymn to Demeter, they talk about ingredients like barley, water, and mint. This notion in John 15:1, the notion of the true vine, for example, only occurs in John. Now, Mithras is another one of these mystery religions. I go out of my way, in both parts of the book, which, it's divided into the history of beer and the history of wine, essentially. Please materialize. And I started reading the studies from Pat McGovern at the University of Pennsylvania. There's evidence of the mysteries of Dionysus before, during, and after the life of Jesus, it's worth pointing out. In fact, he found beer, wine, and mead all mixed together in a couple of different places. Newsweek calls him 'the world's best human guinea pig,' and The New York Times calls him 'a cross between Jack Welch and a Buddhist monk.' In this show, he deconstructs world-class performers from eclectic areas (investing, chess, pro sports, etc . I don't know why it's happening now, but we're finally taking a look. And then was, in some sense, the norm, the original Eucharist, and that it was then suppressed by orthodox, institutional Christianity, who persecuted, especially the women who were the caretakers of this tradition. But let me say at the outset that it is remarkably learned, full of great historical and philological detail. But I don't hold-- I don't hang my hat on that claim. And maybe in these near-death experiences we begin to actually experience that at a visceral level. I mean, shouldn't everybody, shouldn't every Christian be wondering what kind of wine was on that table, or the tables of the earliest Christians? Not because it was brand new data. He co-writes that with Gordon Wasson and Albert Hofmann, who famously-- there it is, the three authors. But I think the broader question of what's the reception to this among explicitly religious folk and religious leaders? And how do we-- when the pharmaceutical industry and when these retreat centers begin to open and begin to proliferate, how do we make this sacred? I opened the speculation, Dr. Stang, that the Holy Grail itself could have been some kind of spiked concoction. Hard archaeobotanical, archaeochemical data, I haven't seen it. And we had a great chat, a very spirited chat about the mysteries and the psychedelic hypothesis. BRIAN MURARESKU: OK. McGovern also finds wine from Egypt, for example, in 3150 BC, wine that is mixed with a number of interesting ingredients. And now we have a working hypothesis and some data to suggest where we might be looking. And very famous passages, by the way, that should be familiar to most New Testament readers. . BRIAN MURARESKU: It just happens to show up. Now is there any evidence for psychedelic use in ancient Egypt, and if not, do you have any theory as to why that's silent? Despite its popular appeal as a New York Times Bestseller, TIK fails to make a compelling case for its grand theory of the "pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist" due to recurring overreach and historical distortion, failure to consider relevant research on shamanism and Christianity, and presentation of speculation as fact Whether there's a psychedelic tradition-- I mean, there are some suggestive paintings. Then I'll ask a series of questions that follow the course of his book, focusing on the different ancient religious traditions, the evidence for their psychedelic sacraments, and most importantly, whether and how the assembled evidence yields a coherent picture of the past. So Pompeii and its environs at the time were called [SPEAKING GREEK], which means great Greece. Not just in Italy, but as kind of the headquarters for the Mediterranean. But the next event in this series will happen sooner than that. In this episode, Brian C. Muraresku, who holds a degree from Brown University in Latin, Greek and Sanskrit, joins Breht to discuss his fascinating book "The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name", a groundbreaking dive into the use of hallucinogens in ancient Greece, the Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, the role of the Eucharist in early Christianity, the . "@BrianMuraresku with @DocMarkPlotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More" Please enjoy! I expect there will be. And I want to ask you about specifically the Eleusinian mysteries, centered around the goddesses Demeter and Persephone. And what we know about the wine of the time is that it was prized amongst other things not for its alcoholic content, but for its ability to induce madness. I can't imagine that there were no Christians that availed themselves of this biotechnology, and I can't imagine-- it's entirely plausible to me that they would mix this biotechnology with the Eucharist. What's different about the Dionysian mysteries, and what evidence, direct or indirect, do we have about the wine of Dionysus being psychedelic? The Tim Ferriss Show. So at the very-- after the first half of the book is over, there's an epilogue, and I say, OK, here's the evidence. I'm currently reading The Immortality Key by Brian Muraresku and find this 2nd/3rd/4th century AD time period very interesting, particularly with regards to the adoptions of pagan rituals and practices by early Christianity.
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